The events of September 11 have raised a number of issues about Islam and the historical conflict with Western culture. In separate interviews Fazeel Ferouz, Head of the Central Islamic Organisation of Guyana, Shahabudin McDoom and United States Ambassador Ronald Godard, discussed some of these issues, along with the present conflict in Afghanistan.

Q: What do you consider Islamic fundamentalism to be?

Fazeel Feroze: I think it is a label that is wrongly used by the Western media to describe Moslems. The vast majority of Moslems are fundamentalist in the sense that we want to go back and follow as closely as possible what Almighty God said in the Quran. The label of fundamentalism however is used in a negative way in trying to stereotype Moslems as a certain type of people. If you ask any Moslem if they want to follow the laws of the Quran they would say yes.

Shahabin McDoom: Most other religions have abandoned their fundamental roots. For example the Christian religion is against gambling but you have many Christian countries where gambling goes on. They say that homosexuality is illegal by the laws of God yet they vote for it. But both of these are prohibited in Islamic states.

Q: What does the Quran say about the establishment of Islamic states and don't such states harm the rights and freedoms of the individual?

FF: Islam has come with a unique message. The sole authority for all human beings is the Creator Allah. Moslems if they are in the commanding position should try to establish an Islamic state with all the power they can muster. But it does not mean they should fight to establish it, if they first can have dialogue with other faiths or systems. There has always been a tradition of invitation. Islam believes in a dialogue... in having good relations with people. If they reject the offered hand and then try to attack the Moslems, then of course Islam will defend itself. But in a situation where the Moslems are in a majority then of course you will rule your life and order your life according to the Holy Quran. We have seen historically in the Moslem rule of Spain, Jerusalem and India that Islam was very tolerant of other faiths. It did not exterminate non-believers. If not perhaps India would be a Moslem state today.

Q: The wearing of the hijaab (head covering) is compulsory in a lot of Moslem countries. Is there anything in the Quran which says this is mandatory?

FF: I was in Iran at the height of the revolution and the Christians told me that apart from a few over zealous Revolutionary Guards, they were not harassed once they knew that they were Christians or Jews. They were left alone to practise their religion. But of course Islam would prefer to see female Moslems moderately or properly attired. But I don't think in any way Islam would force the woman to cover her head.

Q: So countries like Saudi Arabia and to the extreme Afghanistan... are they following the Quran?

FF: It depends how those who are ruling view the morals of the people. The previous Afghan government had women going to university and women were in government positions. It is with the advent of the Taliban we now have heard that this kind of extremist form of having women secluded, etc. It is reported there are over three million women without husbands as a result of 23 years of war and the Taliban say it is because of this. But we have to be very careful when looking at Afghanistan. We had better look at the mainstream countries such as Libya, Iraq and Sudan where this is not happening. In Egypt where there is the oldest university in the world, they don't force Moslems or non Moslems to cover their heads.

SM: I don't think it was right for the Taliban to beat or whip people as we have seen, although I don't know whether this is typical of what was going on. The Quran quite clearly says there is no compulsion in religion.

Q: But that is exactly what the West is saying because the Taliban was doing this and as such they are fundamentalist.

SM: I don't believe it is typical. The Taliban did say women must not go to school and I have heard from a Taliban who said his country is in rubble and until the schools are rebuilt and they are able to set up separate areas for men and women as we used to have in this country - Queens College and Bishops - then they will send the women back to school.

But I don't believe we are getting a clear picture of what was really going on. Having said that I recall that a CNN reporter at the last Hajj asked a girl why she wore these clothes from head to toe and the girl answered very forthrightly. "I only want a man to see my body if I want him to see it. I want to be free." In other words if a sister feels she does not want anyone but her husband to see her ankle or whatever it is then it is a matter for her.

FF: This is a form of respect for the woman's body. This is not like what is happening where women are being exploited because of their sexuality to sell cars and to promote lotto games. If you have a majority of people in a country of that kind of faith, that culture, then of course they would not want that and would prefer to have the woman appropriately covered. But there should be no rule to beat women if they do not comply. It is not Islamic to do that.

Q: Are the two cultures Western secularism and Islam reconcilable?

FF: If man-made systems are going to try and govern the lives of Moslems and there are 1.5 billion of them in the world, and these same Moslems want to go back to their fundamentals, then unless we can have dialogue and understanding and respect for one another then there are going to be clashes.

If the secular or western attitude is to dominate and to have everyone believing and following a singular system then definitely you will have problems. Moslems will not pattern their lives by Western materialist thought. Islam is tolerant of the views of others and therefore it expects to be treated in the same way.

SM: Islam states that if you really believe in your religion and that God had guided us by way of our government, laws, economy, then I don't understand why you would want to separate the state from your religion.

The state became separated from religion in the West because their religion did not suit their purpose. For example, limited liability companies. Islam and Christianity would outlaw them because you are required to pay your debt. If there had not been a secular state in the West there would never have been plantation slavery because it is against religion. Religion was compromised in order to achieve progress. I don't know how any religion could justify slavery. Westerners went down the coast of Africa and found human beings whom they considered to be commodities and put them in ships. Interest on a loan is also forbidden in the Old Testament. But without slavery, limited liability companies and the concept of interest you would not have had all this material progress. But has there been a spiritual progression? Families are disintegrating. Western culture is 'expedientalist' instead of fundamentalist and that expedience has facilitated their progress.

Q: The American authorities say that this present conflict is not about Palestine and that people like Bin Laden are simply out to destroy the West. How central is Palestine to Moslems?

SM: Palestine is absolutely central. The Saudi prince who sent US$10M to the Mayor of New York linked it to US policies in the Middle East. But of course the US does not wish to link what happened on September 11 to Palestine because they are covered in shame over that chapter of history. Palestine was taken from Moslem Arabs to give to the Jews. But it was the Europeans who persecuted the Jews. Why did they not give them part of Europe? Now people are dying every day... I think 170 died since...

Q: Twenty-five died this weekend... Israelis. Is there any justification for those suicide bombings?

SM: How can you stop that? It's like telling the French resistance to stop fighting the Nazis.

Q: But did the French resistance kill civilians? They are blowing up civilians.

SM: If you are an occupying force you can't say you are civilian. Jews came from all over... South Africa, Poland. They can go to Palestine, take a farm belonging to an Arab for thousands of years. And the Palestinians will look from the border and see them living in their houses. They are an occupying force. If I saw somebody in my house which had been in my family for two thousand years... I would shoot them.

Q: What you are saying is that anybody can be a target?

SM: I am saying that they are an occupying force...

Q: Every man woman and child?

SM: In Islam there is a clear prohibition that we do not attack women, old men, children - even trees or fountains. But there have been so many atrocities committed by the Israelis and well documented by groups such as Amnesty International that I would understand. It is not right in Islam but I would understand when they retaliate.

There are 350,000 Palestinians in Lebanon, still refugees for three generations. What do you expect those people to do? The world has stolen their land and America and Britain keep supporting Israel.

FF: If you treat people like animals then those people will lose their humanity and they will react like animals. It is not a question of Islam it is a question of survival. No matter how we preach the whole world is guilty for what is happening in Palestine, in Kashmir and Iraq. Nelson Mandela said recently if you continue to terrorize a people then they will have no option but to use whatever means necessary to achieve their end result. World bodies such as the United Nations have to function as they were intended and not to be rubber stamps for the United States or Britain or Russia. They pass these useless resolutions and nothing gets done. It's not a nice thing to say but only when the people commit these acts that our eyes are opened.

Q: What do you think the future relationship will be like between Western culture and Islam in the wake of September 11?

FF: In the short term things will get increasingly worse for Moslems in the West and in Moslem countries in that America is on a course that will definitely cause havoc and hardship and the loss of innocent lives. But I have faith in the American people. And as long as they realize what their government is doing they will not support those actions. That will have the biggest impact; when it comes not from Moslems but from the American people themselves.

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Q: Mr Ambassador, many Moslems in Guyana are happy that you have taken such a strong interest in their religion since coming here and in the aftermath of the tragedy of September 11. How has the experience been for you?

Ambassador Ronald Godard: It has been part of my learning experience in Guyana. I was in Turkey for three years so Islam was not new to me. Meanwhile I have been fascinated by the various architectures of mosques, mandirs and churches which make up the mosaic of religions in Guyana. As an Ambassador it is important to understand the cultures of a country and even before September 11 I had attended a number of Moslem functions as part of my general education.

Q: What do you believe is meant by the term 'Islamic fundamentalism'?

ARG: I am not sure I fully understand Islamic fundamentalism. I frame it in my own mind - that is in a Christian perspective - as a stricter interpretation of the scriptures along with certain constraints on social behaviour. And in a sense within a fundamentalist group 'a monopoly on the truth' and a tendency to be given less fluid contact with groups within a particular religion.

Q: While President Bush did correct himself for using the phrase "crusade," there is still a perception in the Moslem world that this war on terrorism is in fact a clash of cultures. Of American secular values vs Islamic beliefs. Is there any truth to this?

ARG: There certainly is not. One of the reasons I have accelerated my contacts with Guyana's Moslems is to address this specific misperception. I was shocked after September 11 to see graffiti on the East Coat Sea Wall saying "The West against Islam." That told me then that there are some people - a very small group - who have misinterpreted what has happened since September 11. We have in the US endeavoured to explain to Moslems what is going on and we take the view that the Taliban and bin Laden's group are trying to hijack Islam to promote the very sentiments that the graffiti express: i.e. a confrontation between Moslems and the West. That is not what the military action in Afghanistan is about. The United States has been active in defence of several Moslems nations over the years: in Somalia we provided humanitarian relief; in Kosovo and Bosnia where today there are still 10,000 US troops who are there to protect the local Moslem population; in Kuwait we turned back aggression against a small Moslem country.

Q: Some lawmakers in the United States have gone so far as to say that radical Islam is the new communism. How does the present administration view the threat of radical Islam to its strategic interests around the world?

ARG: I have not heard any lawmakers make such statements and it is certainly not the perception of the US government. There are seven million Moslems living in the US and they are loyal US citizens who support the US efforts against terrorism. There has been an effort by Osama bin Laden to portray it as a Them versus Us situation. But it should be noted that all Afghanistan's neighbours have joined in the effort to arrest the activities of terrorists and they are strongly supportive of the effort to promote a multi-ethnic government. It is by no means a Moslem /Christian confrontation. In fact the Taliban along with bin Laden's group have defined infidels very broadly, including in their enemies the Russians and Chinese.

Q: Some Moslems say the present conflict is rooted in the US support of Israel in denying Palestinians a homeland. Has American policy become more urgent since Sept 11 in finding a resolution to this problem?

ARG: Well I think the US has been working to find a solution to the Palestinian problem for a number of years. A series of Presidents have been engaged in this and the US with its unique relationship with Israel can work with them in negotiating a lasting peace between these two countries. With the very recent events in Israel the US is working closely to defuse the violence and get very difficult negotiations underway. President Bush just as President Clinton before him is committed to this process. Secretary of State Colin Powell in his speech in Louisville laid out a vision which would include an independent state of Palestine living in peace with Israel.

Q: Why do you think there is so much hostility towards America around the world despite its tremendous humanitarian programmes?

ARG: I think this is the price of leadership. The US believes in an active foreign policy derived from its strong values of democracy shared by the American people. We are prepared to act on those beliefs and when you do that you cannot please everyone. My country is not interested in being the policeman of the world, but when we do nothing we are often criticized. There is no way of getting around it. We are going to be criticized by some and praised by others. It is the price of our leadership role we have to assume as the remaining superpower in the world. People expect a lot from us.

Q: Observers note that the same amount of people have died in Afghanistan in the last few weeks as died in the World Trade Center tragedy. Many of these were similarly innocent civilians killed in American bombing raids. What do you say to the argument that terrorism can only truly be stopped when injustice ceases?

ARG: I think that is probably true. Terrorism is a manifestation of frustrations and a bi-product of extreme poverty in some cases. It is important to recognize and address these preconditions. But we cannot accept terrorism as a response to political and social injustice. Innocent civilians should not be targets of violence; the massacring of civilians for a political cause is unacceptable. In Afghanistan we are the first to regret the casualties of bombings and we are taking extraordinary steps to limit these. But inevitably there will be persons injured and killed.

Q: In 1945 at the end of World War II the Nazis, whose atrocities were far worse than the Taliban, were given a civilian trial because then President Harry Truman observed "Undiscriminating executions or punishments without definite findings of guilt fairly arrived at, would not fit easily on the American conscience or be remembered by our children with pride." Why now has President Bush chosen to set up military courts?

ARG: Well it's an exceptional situation...

Q: Was not the end of World War II an exceptional situation?

ARG: They are both exceptional. But I must say that how these military tribunals will be used is very unclear. The President feels the need to use them in special cases and it would be premature to anticipate their employment with no particular guidelines. The administration is just putting in place that option. It would be inconceivable to have a public trial which might mean divulging information on the ongoing efforts to combat terrorism. Because of the nature of the beast we are dealing with, military trials might therefore be needed to protect that effort. And it must be remembered that a right to a speedy trial has also to be protected as opposed to the continued detention of suspected terrorists.

Q: In the wake of September 11 the American values of individual liberty have had to give way to the concerns for collective security. Do you feel that in this regard America will ever be the same?

ARG: America was not changed by the attacks of September 11. Yes the country was shocked, repelled, angry, but we have bounced back pretty quick in terms of reaffirming what the US holds to be decent values and our way of life. In the long term we will be different, but what we were before will be preserved and in some respects strengthened by what we are going through. There is speculation that the individual freedoms we hold so dear may have to be limited. This happened previously in World War II. But I don't think the country has undergone a major transformation of what we really are and what we aspire to be.

Q: How do you feel the future relationship between the Islamic world and Western cultures will evolve?